Our Hangout

There's a lot of stuff to chew on there Ed.

I would just say that whatever box one finds oneself in, the main letter to take into account would be God's Word. Its all about that because His Word will never pass away.

Even within Christianity there is now debate about that. So yea, call me conservative, but I'll stick with God's Word, the Bible. I will ask Him to reveal Himself to me more and more through the pages of His Book and as He guides me by His Spirit.

My questions will always be, by God's grace, as a result of my understanding of His Word. When I see stuff that contradicts His obvious will as He has laid out in His Word, I will, again by His grace, question that and challenge that.

It seems to me that is getting blurred, particularly when I read certain blogs in the emerging church field.

By the way, like your new look.

Glad to have you drop by. And thanks. I'm not home yet, so I'll comment later on tonight.

Here's what I'm thinking. For example "I'll just trust God's and get directions and guidance from there sounds like a solid answer. But that was the point of my entry. What happens when committed Christians are saying I'm getting my direction from God's word, and they really are, they're really searching through God's word, but they search the same passages and come up with different interpretations. What then? How do we get beyond my interpretation is right, theirs is wrong? Because until now, the church hasn't known how to deal with that, except to separate. Which clearly (my opinion) goes against God's desire for the heart of His Kingdom. I think there's more to it, my question is, how do we seek and understand God's Word in a manner that helps us walk together and closer with God? I'm not sure I have the answer, but I know we've got to go beyond what we've done so far...

I believe so often the problem is people try to get the Bible to fit what they believe it says inorder to fit their particular theology.

I guess that's where study and discernment come in. In my own re-commitment I read the Bible in a totally different way and it is so great. Praise God.

Then I listen to pastors who have incredible insights into God's Word and are able to make it so clear. I think of someone like MacArthur.

I think what happens so often people have a certain world view they bring with them and try to get the Bible to fit it and it doesnt make sense. I think of the women in office issue I've
been reading about on other sites. People just don't want to accept that God has given us different roles to play and it has nothing to do with equality under God. The Bible is quite clear yet all this discusion and denonminations splitting over it and stuff.

Some people just don't want to fully submit to God's Word. They say they do but in reality they want God and this, God and that.

Its tragic because they miss out on so much. Its in the total submission that true freedom and peace with God can come about. Only in that, that was God's intent right. That we fully submit and give him all the glory. We are nothing without him. Yet all too often we prop ourselves up like we have something to offer. Without him we have nothing

That's the way I see it.

I'd like to disagree with you a little on this. I think it's easy to say, people just don't want to fully submit to God's Word, when they come to a diffrent conclusion than we do after studying the scriptures.

What have I found, in my time, is that most Christians, I'm talking about people who are genuinely seeking after God, not just sunday morning drop by folk. But people asking questions, reading the Word, seeking. These people usually want to submit fully to God's Word.

Since it's the topic of the day, and you brought it up, let me touch on the women in office issue.
When I was ordained, in '97, I was asked about this, and my comment was, although I don't find myself there, I understand how my brothers and sisters who have come to that position, came to it. What I was saying was this, I, personally, after my own study, etc, couldn't let go of some things that seemed clear to me. But having heard other's interpretation of some, difficult to interpret passages. I understood how they got there, and why they believed the way they did.

This is where things fall apart, we like to say, they're not difficult passages, they're black and white.

But one of the problems with the position, for example is 1Tim 2:11... (which we say is black and white when discussing this issue), where Paul says several things...
1. Women should learn in quiet and submission
2. He (Paul) does not permit women to teach & have authority over a man. Why, two reasons...
a)creation order - man created first
b)it was woman who was deceived by Satan.

And usually, this is it. And when you read it that way, it sounds like a slam dunk. What is grey about that right?

One slight problem...the next verse, which is part of the same passage and context...
Where Paul states..."Women shall be saved by child birth and by a godly lifestyle."

You can simply say, well, the first part is clear, so we just dismiss the last verse and we have a solid case. One problem, you start doing that to scripture, and you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to, isn't this what we accuse certain cults of doing?

My point, you can't ignore the problematic issues that come in the passages. You can stand where we fall, but, we must recognize that it's not all clean and tidy.

People have gone so far as to say, this passage suggests women can't have leadership because they're more succeptible to sin (ie. it was woman who was deceived by Satan) Ok, let's just use some common sense and say, it took Satan to draw woman into sin, man just went along. I'm being fecicious.

Here's my point in these potentially divisive issues.
I don't want to make this about the women issue, I won't go there without good reason.

Most of the time we know where we stand. But we can't even articulate where others stand, and more often than not, are not even willing to try. Because it's easier to suggest, forgive me for using your words here, it's easier just to say, the problem is not grey areas, it's that "others don't want to fully submit to God's Word." We don't even realize it, but often, in order to strengthen our positions, the easiest thing to do is to chop away at other people's spirituality. If their spirituality is faulty, then what they believe is questionable. Not too much unlike political campaigns. I really don't think we realize this as much as it happens.

Even if the oppositions position is faulty, I'd like to be able to know what it is, and further, be able to explain it before I just dismiss it. Because, afterall, I could be wrong. And most importantly, because in God's eyes, they're not the opposition, they're my brothers and sisters.

I have found when I do this, two things happen. I respect others, and often discover, they are much more committed than I first gave them credit for. And often, their positions aren't just fluff to support their lack of spirituality. They're people like me trying to love God with all their hearts and minds, and soul and strength, who have come to different conclusions here and there.

That's got to make a little sense at least.

I think you make some good points. I would refer you to a message by John MacArthur on this subject. I bleive he lays out the biblical position so well.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/womensroles.htm
Have a great week-end

Ok, I really don't want to make this about the women thinking. If McCarthur's "great" points haven't solved the issue (you might say it does for those who want to listen)I'm certainly not going to solve the issue. I know what I believe, I know I have come to that belief through Bible study and wanting to be faithful to the Bible.

I have read McCarthur for a long time. I didn't want to get into this, but McCarthur's style, although he does say so many good things, he really does, his style is one of condemnation. Ie. this is all the fault of feminists. Or this is all the fault of people who have given in to worldly views. Like I mentioned yesterday, when you establish that someone is not worth listening to, why would you even consider what they're saying. As a result, you might miss, some of God's truth. His titling his points, the "feminist" view on this and that passage does exactly that. What I'm suggesting, is no, it's not the feminist view on this and that passage, it's people, honorable, Christian, God-loving people trying to interpret the Bible in a God-honoring way. That's our brothers and our sisters, whom we are called to consider better than ourselves, to love them as Christ loved us. That's unconditionally, sacrificially, and most of all, without name-calling.

In terms of John's message, what if his interpretations are wrong, ie, they sound good, but for example, what if God raised Deborah as a judge in the old testament to make a point, and not because it was just an exception. My point, God had no need whatsoever to raise a woman as a judge, none. And she was, a good, a just and a Godly leader in that time, let's not ignore that fact. Does it make sense that she was raised up as an example of what happens when you sin, and then God blesses her incredibly as a leader? Sorry, I don't buy that.

Jesus' contact with women further goes to show a whole, night to day, difference in his establishing women in a different place in his culture, and the church. Why didn't he pick women as disciples, because he was conscious of his culture. It wasn't until his ministry was in full swing that he began ministering directly to women in the way he did - there are common steps to things, even Jesus showed us that.

I've already touched on the 1Tim passage which is one of the most considered passages in the matter, so I won't go there again.

Furthermore, I think we have a totally messed up submission, we have made it about one party having power over another. Submission in God's Kingom is about service, never about power. Peter reminds both husbands and wives to submit to one another, and doesn't make any distinction about power, which is more in line with the Bible's Paul's picture of submission. Paul says wives submit to your husbands, as to Christ. And then he says husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church (that's what submission is all about in the Kingdom) That's in line with Peter's teaching, and it's in line with what Jesus did for the church, he submitted (surrendered) himself to death on a cross.

That's not feminism talking, that's the Bible, and only the Bible.

I have friends who are egalitarian, I don't know if I'm there, but I understand their argument. And I have friends who are not. And I understand their argument.

One thing I have found. When I listen to members who hold to either position, often it's the people who are complementarians, who are the least gracious and loving and even more judgemental in how they discuss the issue. I don't know why that is. And for years I've counted myself in that camp. Although, I find the position have less credibility as I continue to study the scriptures on the matter.

Regardless of where we stand, and this goes back to my original post, and this is the point I continue trying to make, how do we discuss these things and maintain an example of the Spirit of Christ in our discussion? We can't forget that Paul also said that, I can know all the mysteries and understand all knowlege, but if I don't have love (in how I approach those who don't and how I discuss with them, and how I treat them) then my knowlege, my understanding, more important "I" have nothing.

That's the point! One of Paul's greatest statements. Truth is not the most important thing in God's Kingdom. Love rules first. Is truth important, of course, very, right up there! But, if you place truth above love, it becomes meaningless. Again, that's the Bible speaking, not me.

Whatever the answer is to our future as the people of God impacting this world, I think getting that, must be high on our priority.

Not trying to sway you on your position. Again, that's not what this is about. But I want to make sure others understand, at least as far as I'm concerned, this is not about feminism, this is not about being culturally relevant, this is not about being seeker sensitivie or anything of the sort, no, I want to be true, and faithful, and honest, and fully submitted to what it is that God's Word is calling me to.

Have we got it all right, so far? In some things. But are there others, that we should reread, and rethink. I think absolutely. And if I'm wrong, I am open to God's leading and correction, and pray that he will lead me there, so that I might honor him whole heartedly.

You got a lot of passion Ed and I really respect that. Its obvious to me you desire to do God's will and are wrestling with these different issues. I think God's ok with that don't you? I think if he sees what's in our heart with respect to any issue and that we want clarity on it that he will lead and guide us. I believe that with all my heart.
You said "I know what I believe, I know I have come to that belief through Bible study and wanting to be faithful to the Bible."
I'll be honest with you, from your last post I'm not really seeing what it is you believe on this issue. You kind of defend both positions as being equally valid. Am I wrong there?
I think there are people within the church who hold a certain position on this issue ie: complementarian, who just keep quiet for fear of how they will be perceived. Don't really give their opinion on the issue just say that both positions are equally valid.
I don't understand that. If you have a certain belief based on what you believe the Bible has to say, why not say it. I don't mean you specifically, just people generally.
People are more concerned with what other people will think than what will God think. Don't get me wrong I know that's not you.
Anyways Ed, I wasn't trying to get you going on this issue, but I guess we kind of got there.
We could talk about the same sex issue. That's gonna be huge in the future.
Already seeing in blog world, among some emerging church people, a tolerance even acceptance of the same sex lifestyle. Might even try to use the Bible to defend their position, we'll see.
But that's an issue for another day.

I guess I did that purposefully not play out my hand completely. Because that was my point, it wasn't really so much about what I believed, as much as it was about we're called to treat each other. Thank you for your encouraging words.
On the issue. I've lived most of my life as a complementarian, but would say, I'm pretty much an egalitarian at this point. Having said that, I'd probably find it very weird to sit under a woman pastor, but that's more habit than anything else. I believe the issues are grey enough though, where I can respect someone who studies the Bible and come to a different conclusion on this, regardless of how strongly I feel about it. Which is to say, I wouldn't die over this one.

As a final note on this one, I hear a lot of people argue on this for whom it's dead theology. I consider dead theology, any theology that doesn't have real application in someone's life. So, I hear women argue for the complementarian view who are the leaders, in every sense of the word, in their home. When asked, for even one time where they submitted to their husbands leadership on an issue they disagreed upon, they usually can't give me an example. To me that's dead theology, and there's more of that around that we realize, people who say they believe and will fight for this and that position, but when it comes to living out the reality of their belief, they're just not there. But enough about that.

I really don't know where the same sex issue is going to take us, truthfully it scares me, I hope we handle that better than we have handled other really tough issues. How do we love these people while hating their sin. How do we speak to them in a manner that edifies them, but points out their sin for what it is. How will we live the truth in a way that love wins out. Those are tough questions. I hope God we will tread carefully, but purposefully on this one. Don't get me wrong, I believe it's wrong. But how do I bring my friends gay brother to a place where he'll even listen enough to consider what I have to say?