Our Hangout

This may be a little extreme, but I've heard of parents arranging a visit to the local police station. They pre-arrange a stern lecture from a police officer in advance, sometimes even a visit to see what a jail cell looks like. I know this would have scared the pants off me.

FIve might be a little young for a "scared straight" approach. I'd sit him down with the senior pastor and have him explain what they did to thieves in the OT.

Seriously though, every kid is different. My daughter lifted a small toy from a store during a shopping excursion when she was 4 or 5. Lynn took her back to the store and made her apologize to the cashier. KIds and friends toys are a little different though. Did he think he was borrowing it? Did he think his friend had given it to him? Never know at that age.

I think you're on the right track, Ed. If it's that serious, I'd just keep him away from his friends for a while. And sew his pockets shut.

Boy does this sound a lot like how we felt with Julia-Simone's lying! The good news, I believe, is that that Luca, like Julia-Simone, is good a heart and with patience and persistence, Lucas, like Julia-Simone will get "it".

Ian: How can you say a kids are good at heart? They still have the sin nature. Like in one sense we shouldn't be surprised that they'd lean towards doing bad stuff. People aren't sinners cause they sin; they sin cause they're sinners. But God's design is for our parents to be responsible to proactively intervene and discipline them for right thinking and behaving.

I'm not married or have kids or anything but Ed I think your son will know how disappointed you were in him. And also if he had to return the stolen item in person in front of people that will sober up the accountability too.

Kim, while I would agree with you that we are all sinners, I believe children are born innocent and it is the tempations of the world that corrupt them.

Speaking as a parent .. children always try to push the boundaries and you're right, it is our job to define those boundaries (as defined in the bible). Sometimes the boundary only needs to be defined once .. sometimes it takes persistence (my original blog entry).

My comment for Ed wasn't 'oh give the kid a break' he'll grow out of it (read my comments again carefully) but more I have experienced similar challenges with my children and I know Lucas (except from Ed's blogs .. do you?).

my purpose for the blog comment is support for Ed, speaking as a fellow member of the 'good at heart children who like to challenge parents club'

Thank you all for your comments and interaction, thank you for all your ideas...at the risk of sounding a little bit defensive, all the stuff that was suggested (we've tried over and over again). I also realize that it's not a done once thing, it's the keeping on trying. At the same time this is something we've been dealing with for several years, with a kid that seems to get it, and yet whose behaviour continues to get worst (in this area). Lucas is a great kid, he really is, I love him to death - I just don't want him to be at a worst place 6 months down the road or a year or two.

Darryl, sounds a little extreme - but we have an appointment with a police officer this Friday. Interestingly enough, some police stations have people that do this with kids on a regular basis.

Kim, beyond the fact that kids are born into sin - yes there propensity will be to sin, regardless of their environment...however, kids really are "good at heart" in the sense that they're loving, kind, forgiving etc...thus the reason Jesus says that unless we become like them, we can't enter his kingdom.

Anyway, Lucas is very aware of what's going on, he's constantly talking about it himself. He is not sure about what Friday will be like (police), but he knows that this is the next level and has explained to grandma why he has to go, on his own. He spent a day at grandma's and told grandma that until he stopped stealing things, she couldn't get a computer in her house, like she was planning to do, with him in mind.

I say again, Lucas is a great kid! He is loving, affectionate, but he has a few faults, to my discredit, they are faults I had or have. I'm learning lessons that I never learned as a kid today, through trying to lead my son in God's ways, in the end I realize that things like this aren't just about Lucas...don't forget God will use anything and anyone to lead us closer to himself...

It's humbling being a father.

Friday after a very rough day of a broken heart (dad's) as I tucked him into bed, I gave him some money and told him it was for him to buy a mother's day present. He asked me two questions, how much money would he need to buy two presents. I tried to get him to understand that she just needed one present...he avoided my line of questioning until he stopped me and asked, "dad, is there a father's day?", I said, "yes", and he said, "good." He hugged me, kissed me and said, "I love you dad"

You might think he's just leading me, I assure you, I know my son, he's not that smart. I know when something comes from his heart.

Maybe he'll steal again, maybe he won't - whatever he does we'll deal with it and we'll keep doing everything in our power to lead him in God's right paths...because beyond the sadness and pain there's love, forgiveness and reconciliation. I hope and pray that will always be the case.

Ed, just to clarify, in your response to Kim are you saying that the reason why people get into the kingdom is because they are good at heart just like children?

Kids are one of God's ways of keeping us humble and grateful and dependent. I'm pretty sure about that.

Ian: I think it's true that children are born in sin. This was confirmed for me when I had my own kids. ;)

One more time, I know, we've never discussed it (Dave), but it's not the first time I've had to say it here....There's only one way to the kingdom - his name is Jesus and he is the way, the truth and the life. No one gets to heaven on their own merit or because they've become good at heart (like little children).

Having said that - the disciples approach Jesus and ask him who is greatest in the kingdom of God and he puts a child in their midst and says, "unless you change and become like little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

And then he explains what he means, and no, it doesn't fit neatly into our theology...
You want to enter the kingdom, you want to be the greatest in the kingdom...
1. humble yourself like a child
2. welcome a child and you're welcoming Jesus
3. don't cause children to stumble (lead them astray)

All taken from Matt 18:3 and on.

Ultimately it's about dying to self - if you follow the passage through you see that. And that's what I meant about children being good at heart. They are humble & loving & forgiving etc...They display in their childlikeness a lot of who we need to be in order to please God.

Having said that, you can't read this passage and see that they have a special place in God's heart - what does it mean when Jesus says...For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven?

Here's what I think it means, we don't know as much as we think we know...

Interesting viewpoints. hope things work out for Lucas in this area!