Turns out I'm having this discussion over at Darryl's site, but I want to continue it here since it's where I started it...
I ended the last post by asking, if what we have termed as "spiritual disciplines" are not the best way to "measure" how spiritual someone is, what's better?
These are really not my words or thoughts, but I remember Jesus saying that his followers would be known by their theology (sorry, honest mistake), no, his followers were to be known by their disciplines (oops, sorry again). Let me try again, Jesus said that his followers would be known by their fruit. Uh? Fruit. Oh, you mean how many people they save right? No, tha's us reading into the text again.
Paul comes along and says eh guys, you should know this already but here's what the fruit of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace.....and self-control.
Two points, I don't believe Paul was trying to give us an exhaustive list here. Read the Gospels and you'll find some more. What was it that Jesus said, you are my followers if you "do what I command." And I command you to LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU!!!!!!
Wrapping it up, true spirituality is messy. It's not neat like an ever climbing graph. It's all over the place. Forward, back, upside down and everywhere else.
However, if churches are truly going to measure spiritual growth the focus needs to change from how many verses have you memorized to what kind of fruit are you bearing? And in order for this to happen, we need to rediscover community (I'm not just talking small groups) but true Christian community. People doing spirituality together; knowing each other, challenging each other, encouraging each other...helping each other.
Finally...it's not about measuring in the sense of how far you've gotten as much as it is about are you "going" and you "on track" are you "following" him. And if certain disciplines help you to do that, wonderful, but if they don't - THROW THEM OUT WITH THE DISH WATER.
Posted by edOk Ed, having said all that, and I agree it is about the fruit, what advice do you as a pastor give to a new believer as to what spiritual disciplines they should consider in order to grow in their faith and to know God?
Or for that matter, what message do you give to someone who is not a believer and has approached you after your church service looking for answers?
Posted by: GeorgeI'm on my way out to small group, but I will respond later, probably not till tomorrow though. Good question.
Having said that don't miss my point, I didn't say the disciplines were bad or useless, I simply said we shouldn't use them as the measure for spiritual maturity. Two different issues.
IE. If you know ten verses and someone knows five, who's more spiritual - that's what I mean - you don't know.
If, in Christ, you love others and forgive them and if I refuse to forgive others and hold grudges. Whose more spiritual? The answer is obvious.
Posted by: edTo answer your questions I wouldn't hesitate from suggesting someone read their bible, try solitude, fast etc for a second. On the contrary all these things could be good to help people in their growth, althouth, not all help everyone - I think people are different and grow differently and the tools will differ with the personality. For example...I'm close to God when I write music and it's a growing experience for me.
More than that ultimately, I try to make sure in teaching people that I don't make the disciplines the center of their spirituality, but the seeking after living like Jesus and building his kingdom. Again, back to the fruit. However, with the right heart, the disciplines help to draw us near to God and that's a good thing. But I've also seen that they've often been used as guilt mechanisms to move people to do things that don't work for them - that's not a good thing and of no spiritual value.
One of the best materials I've seen on the applying of the spiritual disciplines is "An ordinary day with Jesus" put out by Willow. A great book on the issue is also "The life you've always wanted" by John Ortberg. Both center on the issue of heart, attitude and being rather than just doing!
Ed you said "To answer your questions I wouldn't hesitate from suggesting someone read their bible, try solitude, fast etc for a second. On the contrary all these things could be good to help people in their growth, althouth, not all help everyone .
Are you suggesting that for some people they could follow Jesus without reading the Bible? How can people be transformed without Biblical knowledge and application?
Would you agree with this statement "Nothing changes us more effectively than the application of Scripture"
George I think you try to find too many lines to read in between. Here's where blogging falls short. If we had real relationships with the people we read etc... then questions like your last one wouldn't necessarily come up. Instead you seem (just what it seems like) to read every line looking for what I'm saying that's wrong or that needs to be corrected.
Having said that, let me answer your questions, can someone follow Jesus without reading their Bible - There's millions of people today following Jesus who don't have access to a Bible - it's easy to think that our experience or paradigm is everyone else's...Many if not the majority of Christians in China still don't have access to a Bible. So can someone follow Jesus without reading their Bible, in the sense that, is it possible? Yes, I think so. Otherwise you'd have to say that there were no Christians for the first 1500 years.
And would I agree with your statement. I guess just to push the envelope I'd tell you, not at face value. The real truth is, nothing changes anyone more effectively than the power of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives. Anyone, Christian or not can pick up a Bible, read the sermon on the mount, apply it and not necessarily (don't miss that) be any closer to God for it.
Okay, now that I've pushed back...George...all you have to do is read one of my sermons (pick any one) and you'll see that I believe that God's Word is central to the Christian walk. The fact that we (especially in the west) have it accessible personally is an incredible treasure and to waste it is a tragedy.
Having said that, just because people read a Bible it does not mean there will be spiritual transformation in their hearts or lives. I know people who read their Bible everyday and yet continue to live without "doing" what it says. This is where you're right, in that the application is what matters in term of spiritual maturity. However, not everyone (talking Christians here) who read their Bible apply it.
Let me end by saying this (take into account that I'm writing on the fly-not every sentence is as measured as if I were deeply evaluating every statement) I've come to discover that there are people who seem to worship the Bible and often miss worshipping the God therein. Is that a surprise? Why should it be, didn't Jesus accuse the Pharisees etc. of doing this with the scriptures?
let me end (again) with my own question...Are you suggesting that if tomorrow, by some freak action all the copies of the Bible were burned, you could no longer follow Jesus? Alright, I don't like to deal with dumb hypothetical situations, but for whatever it's worth...
By the way...I not only believe people should read their Bible...when I can I try to teach them how they could do it to get the most out of it and apply it etc...
Enough for now...
Posted by: edSounds good Ed, I agree.
I guess I've been reading blogs where so called Christian pastors are questioning the reliability of the Bible and its relevance to the 2004 human.
I think of the discussions on other blogs about homosexuality. Its unbelievable. Questioning whether or not its really a sin. Like the Bible isn't clear on that.
Just wanted to ask where you really stood on God's Word and its clear now, thanks.
I love the prayer of Jesus "Sanctify them by your truth, your Word is truth" People question that these days, even in Christian circles.
See you at the theology pub?
Posted by: GeorgeIf it happens, I'm there bud!
Posted by: edYou could count me in too. Could be kewl.
Posted by: Kim